Subject: ar-talk digest: January 19, 1999
Date: 1/20/99 3:00 AM
Received: 1/20/99 10:26 AM
From: Apologetics Resources (sharing, Q & A, no debate) digest, ar-talk@X
To: ar-talk digest recipients, ar-talk@XC.Org
Apologetics Resources (sharing, Q & A, no debate)
Digest for Tuesday, January 19, 1999.
1. Re: Can God make a rock He can't lift?
2. Re: who are the Rephidim?
3. INFO: ICC Expose On Fox Network
4. REQ: anti-cultism is "today's anti-semitism"?
5. Re: King James only
6. Re: who are the Rephidim?
7. RE: Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation
8. RE: Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation
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Subject: Re: Can God make a rock He can't lift?
From: bg640@lafn.org (Don Stoner)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:48:27 -0800
X-Message-Number: 1
>What arguments have you found useful for the age-old question,
>"Can God make a rock that He cannot move?"
Years ago I wrote a tract (out of print) which featured
this question. In essence, it contained a condensed and
dramatized from of Robert Bowman's excellent reply.
Here is the complete (almost) text of the 16-page tract:
1) (front cover)
Can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it?
2)
Before we take on a question involving God and infinity,
let's warm up with a simple practice problem.
(We'll return to the feature question in a few pages)
3)
Consider the Ultimate glue...
4)
1) Bonds anything to anything
2) Forms an unbreakable joint
3) Sets under even the most adverse conditions
4) Unfortunately, the lid is stuck to the jar
5)
In order to improve the ultimate glue, it will be
necessary to give it a few basic limitations:
1) Glue will not bond lid to jar
2) Glue will not bond applicator to target surface
6)
Notice what we have just done:
By imposing a limitation or "weakness" upon the
ultimate glue, we have actually "strengthened"
its usefulness.
7)
Now let's return to the feature question!
Can God (the proverbial irresistable force)
make a rock so big that he can't lift it?
(the immovable object)
8)
There is a similarity between an omnipotent God
and the ultimate glue
9)
If God is omnipotent, a few "weakening" limitations
may be in order.
(We assume God does not want to trap himself inside
the jar, so to speak)
10)
The Bible says that there Are things that God
cannot do! In essence, God cannot lie or change his mind.
(Verses quoted in fine print: Num. 23:19, Is. 31:2,
Mal. 3:6, Rom. 11:29, Titus 1:2, Heb. 6:17-18, James 1:17)
11)
We should have expected that God couldn't lie.
If God, who can speak things into existance, were to say,
"The moon is blue," then it would necessarily follow
that the moon would become blue.
[I've wondered about the truth of that last statement
since I wrote it. I can't think of any way to test it.
This page could be omitted without damaging the argument.]
12)
Another thing God cannot do is contradict himself.
In order to contradict himself, God would have to
either lie at least once, or change His mind.
God cannot do either.
13)
It is a contradiction to simultaneously define:
1) An object which cannot be moved by any force
and
2) a force which can move it.
14)
Because God cannot contradict himself, He cannot
make a rock so big that He can't lift it.
It is a natural and necessary limitation to
anything as powerful as God.
15)
Now you know what God cannot do.
16)
Here is where to come to see what He can do:
(your Church's or organization's address goes here)
I thought someone might have some fun with this.
It was copyrighted (1981), but I have no objections
to anyone using it (for free) who would like to.
Other tracts similarly available:
Who made God?
This is a tract about Jesus
You are too intelligent to read a tract about Jesus
You will not read this tract
Don Stoner
Author of A New Look at an Old Earth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: who are the Rephidim?
From: Rich Poll <apologia@XC.Org>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:05:39 -0500
X-Message-Number: 2
The following was received on 1/18/99 3:19 PM, from John & Wendy Morehead
<morehead@mail2.quiknet.com>:
>the Rephidim
FYI, no reference in Melton's Encyclopedia of American Religions (6th
ed.).
Rich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: INFO: ICC Expose On Fox Network
From: DAMIANXRAY@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:29:52 EST
X-Message-Number: 3
>From a private e-mail: cut and pasted for your edification
>> 'Fox Files', a t.v. show, which I don't know if you get that, but Thursday
night at 9:00 p.m., they are having a show called 'Cults on Campus', which is
gong to outline the icc.<<
I am assuming my contact is referring to THIS Thursday, 21 January, and that
it will be aired over the Fox News Network, who I believe airs the "Fox Files"
(which is Rupert Murdoch's clone of a Dateline/60 Minutes/20/20 - esque stab
at investigative reporting. Actually, the "Fox Files" aired one segment that
they had on the youth party culture in LA was actually very, very good - and
sobering).
agape
Rafael Martinez
Director TVBSA
(423) 559-8195 INFOLine
www.spiritwatch.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: REQ: anti-cultism is "today's anti-semitism"?
From: ahein@xs4all.nl (Anton Hein)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:39:46 GMT
X-Message-Number: 4
In a recent press release, some details of which I am trying to verify, a
Martyn Percy - director of the Lincoln Institute for the Study of Religion
and Society - was quoted referring to anti-cultism as "today's
anti-Semitism."
I emailed Mr. Percy to find out the context and/or references for the
quote. He replied that though he has "concerns about anti-cult work and
writing," he has - to his knowledge - never equated it with anti-semitism.
In my reply to him, I included the paragraph from the press release.
However, in his response he did not address the alleged quote. Instead he
let me know that he has "rarely written about cults or human rights, and
certainly not together." (Though he also mentions he talks about cults on
radio and tv, and has just finished an encyclopedia article on cults and
families).
Thus I contacted the source of the press release - an organization called
Human Rights Without Frontiers (http://www.hrwf.net), headed by Willy
Fautre. The organization's web site states:
It is independent of all political, ideological or religious movements
and
Human Rights Without Frontiers does not defend one specific religion
nor all religions.
Human Rights Without Frontiers defends the basic principles of the
freedom of religion and belief wherever they are violated and whoever
is the victim.
The press releases include professional material from organizations like
Amnesty International and legitimate press services, to (what I consider
to be) the spin doctoring of CESNUR.
Mr. Fautre let me know that he will try and contact the author of the
press release, a British journalist by the name of Paul Stevenson in order
to verify the quote.
Meanwhile, I wonder whether anyone here on AR-talk can verify the quote.
NOTE: If you can point to specific sources or resources dealing with the
quote (or items that can provide insight into Martyn Percy's position on
cults and anti-cultism), please post them here in AR-talk. If, on the
other hand, you wish to discuss the quote itself, meet me in AR-vent.
In case you wonder about the press release: It reported on a conference
titled "Taking Religious Convictions Seriously: The Impact Of The European
Conventions On Human Rights," held at Imperial College, London, January 6
and 7, 1999.
Anton
--
CMR's Apologetics Index: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein/apologetics.html
Apologetics and Counter-Cult Resources for Research and Ministry
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: King James only
From: ahein@xs4all.nl (Anton Hein)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:58:34 GMT
X-Message-Number: 5
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:40:56 EST Jeff S Hauser wrote:
>I penciled down the sites then deleted the E's, so here goes.
Pencil the tilde (~) back in to my URL:
About King James-Only
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein/k00.html#kjvonly
Anton
--
CMR's Apologetics Index: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein/apologetics.html
Apologetics and Counter-Cult Resources for Research and Ministry
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: who are the Rephidim?
From: JKWWFI@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:29:55 EST
X-Message-Number: 6
In a message dated 1/19/99 3:08:46 PM Central Standard Time,
apologia@XC.Org writes:
> The following was received on 1/18/99 3:19 PM, from John & Wendy Morehead
> <morehead@mail2.quiknet.com>:
>
> >the Rephidim
>
> FYI, no reference in Melton's Encyclopedia of American Religions (6th
> ed.).
>
> Rich
I was contacted last week by a TV station in Wichita Falls about the Rephidim.
The reporter said that there were unconfirmed rumors that the group was
preparing a Y2K survival camp or a some kind of doomsday retreat near Wichita
Falls.
The reporter said they were thought to be connected to R. B. Thieme's
Berachah Church in Houston. We faxed some info from our files on Thieme but
we were hesitant to comment on the specific church having no information. We
also encouraged them not to go with the "doomsday" or "cult" angle on the
story based on rumor only -- without having some facts.
James K. Walker, President
Watchman Fellowship, Inc.
jkwwfi@aol.com
http://www.watchman.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation
From: "Lenny Esposito" <lennyesp@pe.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:48:25 -0800
X-Message-Number: 7
>From the thread about a week ago, the L.A. Times today ran an article on the
DeMoss foundation. The complete article can be found temporarily at
http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/LIVING/t000005444.1.html Excerpts
are below:
The Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation is again spending multiple millions of
dollars in magazines and on TV, this time hoping to send you a free gift.
It's a book called "Power for Living" that promises to end your presumed
depression and despair by leading you to a more personal relationship with
God.
No strings attached, no contributions solicited or accepted, no respondents'
names to be used for any other mailing lists in future, the ads promise.
Just the book.
And that's the mystery.
Why would any group spend so much money to give away a product, and ask
nothing in return?
"It could be some sort of cult," theorized one psychiatrist, who watched the
ad on TV recently at a local deli. "I'm, frankly, afraid of a group that
spends so much yet reveals so little about itself."
Gila Reinstein, a New Haven, Conn., former teacher and a mother of three,
finds the ads odd because "this is a market economy. From day one we're
taught not to expect something for nothing. Why would someone pay [for ads]
who has nothing to gain from them?"
But others think the DeMoss folks might want to help improve people's lives
because they believe they can--without asking anything in return. (more)
Lenny Esposito
"Come Let Us Reason Together..."
http://www.pe.net/~lennyesp/ e-mail: lennyesp@pe.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation
From: "Pat" <vanhoose@bright.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:20:14 -0500
X-Message-Number: 8
-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny Esposito <lennyesp@pe.net>
To: Apologetics Resources (sharing, Q & A, no debate) <ar-talk@XC.Org>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:58 PM
Subject: [ar-talk] RE: Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation
>The Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation is again spending multiple millions of
>dollars in magazines and on TV, this time hoping to send you a free gift.
>It's a book called "Power for Living" that promises to end your presumed
>depression and despair by leading you to a more personal relationship with
>God.
Lenny,
I teach adult Sunday School at my Methodist Church. Right now, I am
doing a video - Bible study series done by Jamie Buckingham, the author of
"Power For Living." Buckingham died in 1992, but the study guide that I
have syas that Buckingham held graduate degrees in English literature and
theology. He was founder and senior pastor of the Tabenacle Church, an
interdenominational churhc in Melbourne, Florida. He was the author of 45
books, including biographies on Pat Robertson, Corrie ten Boom, Kathryn
Huhlman and Nicky Cruz. He was also a columnist for "Charisma" magazine.
Pat
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