Subject: Re: AR-Talk Re: Hexam/Poewe book slams evangelicals
Date: 06/13 6:18 AM
Received: 06/13 10:13 AM
From: DGrooth133@aol.com, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <DGrooth133@aol.com>
Originally dated: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:19:43 -0400 (EDT)
On Hexam:
It is not irresponsible for me to make a general claim about Hexam's book.
It is an encouragement for others to analyze it for themselves. I would
like to review the entire book somewhere, but that remains to be seen.
Dr. Hexam's idiosyncratic discussion of monism is not the only problem with
the section of his book. However, my discussion of monism in Unmasking the
New Age is not without definition or illustration. Read it for yourself. It
is abjectly and utterly absurd to think that a Christian student would have
his faith threatened by understanding of the term, which is within the
standard range of meaning. My use of the term is little different from R.C.
Zaehner's use, for instance. My books are not superficial pot boilers or
"reductionistic" as Hexam claims. Nor is Elliot Millers book. Hexam does
not back up his accusations in the book.
On the other hand, Hexam's use of "monism" stretches the boundaries to the
point of being misleading. When you say "Christianity can be viewed as a
monism," most people will think of Meister Eckhart or Matthew Fox's view of
Christianity, not the orthodox view. His quote of Gordon Clark is not given a
sufficient context to make clear just what Clark was getting at.
It is also objectionable for Hexam to claim that the Geisler/Clark book, New
Age Apologetics is wrong to view Suzuki, Sankara, Radhakrishan, and Plotinus
as pantheistic thinkers. They clearly are pantheistic, although each has a
different version of it. Hexam also faults Geisler/Clark for not including
Hegel as a pantheist. This is ironic, since Hegel clearly is not a pantheism,
but a panentheist.
It is also a poor strategy apologetically to write a book for a secular
publisher and drag other Christians unnecessarily through the mud. What's
the point of it, except to indicate that your approach is far superior.
Doug Groothuis
Subject: AR-Talk FYI: Muslim Sees Message from God in Tomato
Date: 06/13 4:25 AM
Received: 06/13 10:12 AM
From: ahein@xs4all.nl, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <ahein@xs4all.nl>
Originally dated: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:25:31 GMT
Another reason to *eat* your vegetables:
Updated 11:06am EDT June 12, 1997 (www.excite.com)
"Miracle message" in a tomato?
LONDON - British Muslims hailed what was described as a "miracle message"
from God written inside a tomato.
When schoolgirl Shaista Javed, 14, sliced the tomato in half, she found the
message spelled out in Arabic by its veins, British newspapers reported.
On one side she read "There is only one God," while the other said
"Mohammed is the messenger."
Shaista, a Muslim, believes she has witnessed a miracle.
"God made me buy that tomato," the Daily Mail quoted her as saying. "These
words are a message from God."
Since Sunday, when she bought the tomato in the northern city of
Huddersfield, word has spread throughout the Muslim community. About 200
people, some from as far afield as London, have visited the household to
see the fruit, wrapped in plastic clingfilm to keep it fresh.
A local shopkeeper said demand for tomatoes had surged, but the nearby
mosque was cautious. "We don't consider it a miracle but it is certainly a
blessing," a spokesman was quoted as saying.
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Subject: Re: AR-Talk REQ: George Gef
Date: 06/13 1:00 PM
Received: 06/13 10:13 AM
From: Lin Collette, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Linda_Collette@brown.edu (Lin Collette)
Originally dated: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:01:28 -0500
>Originally from: Apologia@xc.org (Rich Poll)
>Originally dated: Thu, 12 Jun 97 11:30:37 -0000
>
>Has anyone seen an analysis of George Geftakys' group, "The Assembly"?
>I've read they have "independent assemblies" in California, Nebraska,
>Illinois, Missouri, Rhode Island, and Virginia; in Canada -- Calgary,
>Estevan and Ottawa; and outside North America -- Mexico, England, Spain,
>and Nigeria.
I have not seen or heard anything about this group here in Rhode Island. I
would like more information, if it's available.
Thanks
lin
Subject: AR-Talk RES: New Age Stats/Trends from American Demographics Mag
Date: 06/13 11:51 PM
Received: 06/14 11:18 AM
From: JKWWFI@aol.com, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <JKWWFI@aol.com>
Originally dated: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
The current issue of American Demographics magazine (June 1997) has an
interesting article containing some stats and trends on the New Age Movement.
Beyond the Fringe in the 1990s, June 1997, Am...
Here are some tidbits:
* "The number of New Age bookstores in the U.S. now exceeds 5,000"
* "If each bookstore did $200,000 ..., that makes New Age a $1 billion
industry."
* Aromatherapy sales alone are estimated at between "$300 million and $500
million and growing 30 percent a year...."
* "Our primary [New Age book store] customers used to be white women
between the ages of 25 and 45.... Now one-third of our clients are men,
a larger portion are people of color, and we're seeing a broader income
range...."
* Claim: 40,000 psychics in Berkeley,Calif alone [???? I thought everyone
in
Berkeley was a psychic].
* "There is also a strong link between 1990s New Age and 1960s drug
culture."
Copyright 1997 © Cowles Business Media.
American Demographics /Marketing Tools
A unit of Cowles Business Media
Tel: 607-273-6343 Fax:607-273-3196
E-mail:WebMaster@demographics.com
James K. Walker, president
Watchman Fellowship, Inc.
jkwwfi@aol.com
www.watchman.org
Subject: Re: AR-Talk RES: New Age Stats/Trends from American Demographics Ma
Date: 06/14 8:57 PM
Received: 06/15 11:34 AM
From: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Apologia@xc.org (Rich Poll)
Originally dated: Sat, 14 Jun 97 13:58:02 -0000
On 6/13/97 11:51 PM, JKWWFI@aol.com wrote:
>The current issue of American Demographics magazine (June 1997) has an
>interesting article containing some stats and trends on the New Age Movement.
Excelent post James. Significant stuff. And thanks for the URL.
> * Claim: 40,000 psychics in Berkeley,Calif alone [???? I thought
> everyone in Berkeley was a psychic].
Oooh. Now you've gone and put your foot in it. Wait 'til this gets back
to the gang at SCP! ;)
Rich
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rich Poll <Apologia@xc.org>
Owner/Moderator, AR-Talk
<http://apologia.org>
Subject: AR-Talk Hinduism Summer Course at USCWM
Date: 06/14 8:57 PM
Received: 06/15 11:34 AM
From: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Apologia@xc.org (Rich Poll)
Originally dated: Sat, 14 Jun 97 13:58:23 -0000
PRACTICAL STUDIES ON HINDUISM -- The India Center for Mission (at the
U.S. Center for World Mission) is sponsoring a shortened Hindu Studies
Institute this summer, from July 5-11, 1997 (Weekend and weeknights).
Topics include: Hinduism in India, Philosophical, Popular and Bhakti
Hinduism, the New Age, Sikhism, Folk, Hinduism, etc. Approximately 24
hours
of teaching. Dr. Vern Middleton, and Rev. Premkumar Dharmaraj will do the
teaching. Exec. Director Greg Parsons invites all, "Come and get a week of
practical knowledge on how to reach Hindus!" For more information, I'm
sure
Greg will be glad to forward your mail to the correct department... :-)
<greg.parsons@uscwm.org>
-- from Brigada Today, 13 Jun '97
Rich
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rich Poll <Apologia@xc.org>
Owner/Moderator, AR-Talk
<http://apologia.org>
Subject: Re: AR-Talk Re: Hexam/Poewe book slams evangelicals
Date: 06/14 9:57 PM
Received: 06/14 9:34 PM
From: DGrooth133@aol.com, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <DGrooth133@aol.com>
Originally dated: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:58:53 -0400 (EDT)
Here are the specifics on the book I mentioned a few days ago:
Irving Hexam and Karla Poewe, *New Religions as Global Cultures: Making the
Human Sacred* (Westview Press: A Divison of HarperCollins Publishers, 1997).
Paperback, 194 pages. Chapter one contains the objectionable material on
evangelicals.
Douglas Groothuis
Subject: Re: AR-Talk Rupert Murdoch Buys Family Channel
Date: 06/15 2:27 AM
Received: 06/14 9:34 PM
From: Alan Young, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Alan Young <ajtech@apc.net>
Originally dated: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:28:34 -0700
Rich Poll wrote:
>
> Originally from: Apologia@xc.org (Rich Poll)
> Originally dated: Thu, 12 Jun 97 12:34:43 -0000
>
> Per our previous discussion...
>
> MURDOCH BUYS ROBERTSON'S CABLE NETWORK ...
[...]
Things may not be as bad as they seem. The information I have received
from a 700 club employee (not a spokesman) is that the 700 club, and the
religious ministry is not sold, only the Family Channel. He says that
the religious ministry, 700 club etc, will have a tremendous
financial windfall as a result of the sale, benefitting the
Gospel rather than compromising it. Our error seems to be that of
lumping all of Pat Robertson's enterprises into one entity which they
are definitely not. Is there any way to verify what is going on here?
Alan Young
ajtech@apc.net
Subject: Re: AR-Talk Re: Hexam/Poewe book slams evangelicals
Date: 06/15 7:20 AM
Received: 06/15 11:34 AM
From: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Apologia@xc.org (Rich Poll)
Originally dated: Sat, 14 Jun 97 22:19:38 -0000
On 6/15/97 3:40 AM, DGrooth133@aol.com <ar-talk@xc.org> wrote:
>One more thing about Dr. Hexam's claim...
By the quiet from you before today Doug I had the impression you were
going by the Charter's admonishment to resist debating. I do now ask that
you hold off. I believe you've had four posts to Irving's one. Please let
it rest.
Could I interest you two in a online debate statement presentation that
would be made available on the Apologia web site? I am envisioning
something perhaps similar to the How Wide the Divide? item in our "What's
News" archive.
How about it Irving? I'm open to negotiating the presentation format.
Rich
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rich Poll <Apologia@xc.org>
Editor, Apologia Report
<http://apologia.org>
Subject: Re: AR-Talk Re: Hexam/Poewe book slams evangelicals
Date: 06/15 3:40 AM
Received: 06/14 9:34 PM
From: DGrooth133@aol.com, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <DGrooth133@aol.com>
Originally dated: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
One more thing about Dr. Hexam's claim that my critique of the New Age
movement is too broad and unnuanced. I have always realized the breadth and
variety of what goes by (or went by) "New Age." I suggest the good
professor--and those influenced by his remarks--remember this statement from
Unmasking the New Age (InterVarsity Press, 1986):
"The task of properly identifying, analyzing, and critiquing something as
large and varied as the New Age movement is a formidable task for several
reasons. First, The New Age movement draws from many sources...Second,
because of this diversity, statements made by representatives of the New Age
may not hold for all those associated with it. Third, the New Age world view
itself emphasizes and exalts change and evolution. Therefore, many of those
involved in the New Age movement often shift their
perspectives...Nevertheless, we can identify six distinctives of New Age
thinking... (page 18)."
This kind of careful qualification (also used by Elliot Miller in his A Crash
Course on the New Age [Baker, 1989]), is hardly "reductionistic." Dr.
Hexam's charge is groundless. Apparently, he thinks that only professors of
Religious Studies (like himself) are qualified to say anything of
significance on New Religious Movements. He is wrong.
Doug Groothuis
Subject: AR-Talk FYI: U.S. cult leader gets 45 years for murders of defector
Date: 06/15 7:24 AM
Received: 06/15 11:32 AM
From: ahein@xs4all.nl, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <ahein@xs4all.nl>
Originally dated: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:24:39 GMT
U.S. cult leader gets 45 years for murders of defectors
09:17 p.m Jun 12, 1997 Eastern
HOUSTON, June 12 (Reuter) - The head of the Lamb of God religious cult
was sentenced on Thursday to 45 years in prison for ordering the murders
of three former sect members who were shot to death in Texas in 1988.
Aaron LeBaron, 28, who became the sect's high priest after his father's
death, was convicted in February on murder-for-hire, racketeering and
civil rights charges in the orchestration of nearly simultaneous murders
of the defectors in Houston and Dallas.
``His father created a monster called the Church of the Lamb of God, but
Aaron LeBaron gave that monster direction,'' Assistant U.S. Attorney
Mike Shelby said after the sentence was handed down in a Houston federal
court.
In a ``blood atonement'' for leaving the cult, Mark Chynoweth and his
brother Duane Chynoweth were shot to death in Houston, and Edward
Marston was killed in Dallas.
Lamb of God members, following teachings that founder Ervil LeBaron laid
out in a 510-page creed, believed anyone leaving the cult had to be
killed before believers could inherit God's kingdom on Earth.
Aaron LeBaron was captured last year near the cult's colony in northern
Mexico. Prosecutors are still searching for his half-sister Tarsa
LeBaron, the final family member alleged to have participated in the
murders who is still at large. ^REUTER@
------------------------------------------------------------
Search the Bible + Online Bible Study Books (commentaries,
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Christian Ministry Report: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein
Subject: AR-Talk RES: Two By Twos - Ex Members
Date: 06/15 7:31 AM
Received: 06/15 11:32 AM
From: ahein@xs4all.nl, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <ahein@xs4all.nl>
Originally dated: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:31:13 GMT
What is the Purpose of this Web Site?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
•This site is written and maintained by EX members of this secretive
religious sect.
•We want to expose certain facts that are carefully hidden from the
members of this religion.
•We also want to inform the general public about this secretive group.
Why don't the members of this group have all the facts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
•The early leaders of this 100 year old church carefully concealed the
truth of it's history.
•As a result they do not publish anything about their history, beliefs,
or how they operate.
•This religious group is likely one of the few that try to remain
hidden--and yet they have thousands of members worldwide!
------------------------------------------------------------
Search the Bible + Online Bible Study Books (commentaries,
dictionaries, topical Bibles, etc.), directly from the
Christian Ministry Report: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein
Subject: AR-Talk RES: Extensive Web Site on New Religious Movements
Date: 06/15 7:45 AM
Received: 06/15 11:32 AM
From: ahein@xs4all.nl, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <ahein@xs4all.nl>
Originally dated: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:45:36 GMT
http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~jkh8x/soc257/
This site is maintained by Jeffrey K. Hadden, Professor of Sociology,
University of Virginia.
Excellent material, with a large index of links to NRM sites, an index
of anti-cult and counter-cult sites and links to religious megasites.
Anton
------------------------------------------------------------
Search the Bible + Online Bible Study Books (commentaries,
dictionaries, topical Bibles, etc.), directly from the
Christian Ministry Report: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein
Subject: AR-Talk RES: SpiritWeb
Date: 06/15 11:12 AM
Received: 06/15 11:32 AM
From: ahein@xs4all.nl, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: <ahein@xs4all.nl>
Originally dated: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:12:26 GMT
Lots of New Age and "Mixed Bag" info at this site, which claims to be
"independent of any kind specific religious belief-system or movement,
but tries to give an overview of manifold forms of spirituality."
From the "What's New" page:
>June 13, 1997
>
>The Elohim Speak To Brother Soul And Sister Heart, The Mahatma
>- Father, Son And Holy Ghost, How To Become A Mahatma Walk In
>and Falling Into Love With The Self channeled by Caroline Fitzgerald.
>
>Business Feng Shui and FAQs on Feng Shui written by Jenny Liu.
>
>Karma, The Law of Action followed by Reaction, brief overview on
> Karma Yoga by Dinu Roman. Devas and Leprechauns: More Adventures
> by Toraya Ayres.
>A NON-PROFIT AND INDEPENDENT WEB-SITE
>
>SPIRITWEB ORG, PROMOTING SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS
>ON INTERNET/WWW. ONLINE SINCE 1993.
>
>MAINTAINED IN SWITZERLAND, DISTRIBUTED IN CALIFORNIA, SPAIN,
>ITALY, SOUTH AFRICA, AUSTRALIA
>
>Spiritual Consciousness, Channelings, Lightwork, UFO Phenomena,
>Light-Technology, Healing Methods,
>Meditation, Out Of Body Experience,Yoga Paths, Veda & Dharma,
>Theosophy, Mysteries, Astrology
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Welcome to Spirit-WWW! A dedicated spiritual world-wide-web site which
>comprehends spirituality in a modern context in review of ancient teachings
>and religious belief-systems. The site is independent of any kind specific
>religious belief-system or movement, but tries to give an overview of manifold forms of spirituality.
Anton
------------------------------------------------------------
Search the Bible + Online Bible Study Books (commentaries,
dictionaries, topical Bibles, etc.), directly from the
Christian Ministry Report: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein
Subject: AR-Talk "Hexham slams ..." A Suggestion
Date: 06/15 6:29 PM
Received: 06/15 12:59 PM
From: Irving Hehxam, ar-talk@xc.org
To: AR-Talk, ar-talk@xc.org
Originally from: Irving Hehxam <hexham@acs.ucalgary.ca>
Originally dated: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:30:30 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)
Since, AR-Talk is intended to provide information
rather than act as a forum for debate I suggest we continue
to discuss the interesting points Professor Groothuis has
raised on NUREL-L. For those members of this list who do
not subscribe to NUREL-L, I amend subscription details at
the end of this post.
Before, withdrawing from the discussion on AR-Talk
there are a couple of points worth making. The first
concerns the general background to our criticism of
evangelical anti-cult apologetics. In the context of our
book it was necessary to discuss the work of various
evangelical authors because evangelicals have played a
major role in creating public awareness and attitudes
towards cults and new religions.
It was, therefore, necessary to criticize
evangelical writers, rather than ignore their work because
evangelical criticisms of cults play a role in the
formation of government policy towards religious freedom in
Europe. The irony here is that North American criticisms of
cults have been cited in German courts to limit religious
activity. These restrictions make no distinction between
groups like Satanism, Hare Krishna, the Unification Church
and evangelical groups like Campus Crusade. It is also
important to realise that under the guise of the "danger"
of "fundamentalism" counter cult legislation is being used
to hinder conservative Christians in various German State
churches.
Further, as we point out in our book, pp. 15-20,
German established church "cult experts" are playing an
important role in encouraging the Russian Duma and other
newly liberated East European countries to outlaw
evangelical activity.
No doubt some people may question these statements
especially because the German Basic Law guarantees the
freedom of religion. This is true. But, since 1989 German
Constitutional and Administrative Courts have progressively
reinterpreted the freedom of religion clauses in the Basic
Law to allow serious interference in religious activities.
Should anyone doubt the truth of what I am
claiming, and have SERIOUS questions, then they may contact
the Berlin lawyer Norbert Kirsch, Antonienstr. 50a, 13403
Berlin (Reinickendorf), Germany, FAX 011-49-30--413-9610;
the British CMS missionary David Goodenough, 15 College Rd.
Hayword's Heath, West Sussex, RH16 1QN, FAX
011-44-1444-45176; or the American reporter Steve Selthoffer,
Heer Str. 138, 53111 Bonn, Germany, Fax:
011-49-228-9829899. But, please, if you do contact any of
these people don't waste their time with frivolous
questions. They are very busy individuals.
Under these circumstances it we believed it was
essential to discuss evangelical and other criticisms of
cults and new religions because their influence goes far
beyond North America and are actually being used to attack
fellow evangelicals in Europe.
Second, among his many misreading of our work
Professor Groothuis states: " Hexam also faults
Geisler/Clark for not including Hegel as a pantheist. This
is ironic, since Hegel clearly is not a pantheism but a
panentheist."
It is true that Hegel denied being a pantheist and
that some commentators argue that he was a panentheist.
But, we never claim that Hegel is a pantheist in the first
place. What we actually say is "and Georg Wilhelm Friedrich
Hegel, who can plausibly be represented as pantheists."
Over the last, almost two, centuries many scholars have
represented Hegel as a pantheist. For example, Theodore
Christlieb, "Modern Doubt and Christian Belief," Edinburg,
T. & T. Clark, 1874, p. 163; Karl Loewith, "From Hegel to
Nietzsche," London, Constable, 1964, p. 117; and Paul
Edwards, "The Encyclopedia of Philosophy," London,
Macmillan, 1967, Vol. 6, p. 34.
Finally, if our writing appears arrogant, as
Professor Groothuis suggests in a later post, I apologise.
This is not because we "thinks that only professors of
Religious Studies (like himself) are qualified to say anything of
significance on New Religious Movements." Rather, its a
matter of ethnicity. What can does one expect from an
Englishman and a Prussian!!!
For people who would like to continue the
discussion on NUREL-L please send the following message:
SUBSCRIBE NUREL-L <YOUR NAME>
to
Thanks,
Irving
----------------------
Irving Hehxam
hexham@acs.ucalgary.ca
Subject: AR-Talk FYI: New Angle on Bible/Torah Code Theory
Date: 06/16 12:00 AM
Originally from: Apologia@xc.org (Rich Poll)
Originally dated: Sun, 15 Jun 97 16:51:23 -0000
The following gives new insight on "code" extraction:
DATA MINING FOR FOOL'S GOLD
Along the same lines as the theory that a bunch of chimps locked in
a room with a bunch of typewriters could eventually come up with
Shakespearean prose, a finance professor at MIT warns: "Given
enough time, enough attempts, and enough imagination, almost any
pattern can be teased out of any data set." Wrong-headed
correlations among financial indicators are common, says the
managing director of First Quadrant Corp., who illustrates his point
with "Stupid Data-Miner Tricks": for instance, after sifting
through a United Nations CD-ROM, he's discovered that the single
best predictor of the Standard & Poor 500-stock index was butter
production in Bangladesh. The problem will only get worse, say
industry observers, who point out that more powerful desktop
machines will be capable of making even more bizarre statistical
predictions. (Business Week 16 Jun 97)
-- from the Edupage e-journal, 15 Jun '97
Rich
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rich Poll <Apologia@xc.org>
Owner/Moderator, AR-talk
<http://apologia.org>
© Copyright 1997 by Apologia <www.apologia.org>. All rights reserved.